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View Full Version : A reality check on DHS ammunition purchases.



Kosher
03-16-2013, 09:09 AM
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2013/03/15/homeland-securitys-ammunition-purchases-should-not-worry-you/

I'm quite familiar with IDIQ contracts, having sold to the government for over 20 years.


In the end, there is absolutely no truth to the statements permeating the Internet about how “DHS bought 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition last year.” That number was reached through either basic math errors or willful ignorance on the part of those who make a living by crying wolf. That this rumor has traveled so far in conservative circles is especially ironic given the fact that a) buying in bulk is a fiscally smart decision, and b) hiring more DHS (CBP) agents to, among other things, better protect the border means buying more ammunition.

I personally believe that these planned purchases could contribute to the rising price of ammo, but only if you add in all the newbs who are rushing to purchase arms because they are afraid the government is going to take away something they never owned in the first place.

Mad Dog
03-16-2013, 10:08 AM
I agree Kosher.
We have enough factual information.
I try to stay away from speculation.
Sometimes though it gets confusing in the mix.
Be prepared but be realistic.
That way you are prepared for the true enemy.

telecast
03-16-2013, 10:14 AM
No one in their right mind would believe they've actually taken delivery of 1.6 billion rounds of ammo in the last few months, not even sure that's possible. But orders of that magnitude tend to tie up manufacturers. Between that and the panic buying ammo is scarce.

BTW, ammo prices haven't really gone up that much unless being artificially inflated at the stores. Magnum Force is still selling what they can get at their normal markup. There are leaches who will use abnormally high demand and low availability to make extra $. I've seen bricks of .22 Long rifle at gun shows for $60 while Magnum is less than half of that.

Mudpuppy
03-19-2013, 02:14 PM
who is a source you can trust? answer: no one.

sprink
03-19-2013, 03:04 PM
who is a source you can trust? answer: no one.

The internet of course!

Kosher
03-19-2013, 03:06 PM
The internet of course!

Lincoln said the same thing :)

Mudpuppy
03-19-2013, 05:57 PM
lol.. do you think al gore had any idea how powerful the internet was when he invented it?

telecast
03-20-2013, 09:08 AM
Something interesting. The interviewer obviously works for a conservative propoaganda news group, but the congressman's responses should be accurate.

Well, at least as accurate as a politician can be.

Which is not very accurate.

Oh well, take it for what you will. Video is about 2-1/2 minutes.

A U.S. Congressman was asked about the Department of Homeland Security’s purchase of 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition that the agency will stockpile over the near future, as confirmed by the Associated Press.


According to the video description posted by WeAreChange:

“At CPAC, Luke Rudkowski interviewed Congressman Timothy Huelscamp on his decision to vote against the NDAA which was due to the unconstitutionality of the indefinite detention provision. They also discussed Obama’s Disposition Matrix and the large ammunition purchases made by the DHS.”

Militarization of domestic police forces is not permissible under U.S. law; and specifically posse comitatus (mentioned during Rand Paul’s filibuster). DHS has some explaining to do and there will be plenty of people analyzing if its stockpiling of weapons and ammunition passes muster.

It is irrelevant matter whether one is suspicious or trusting of the federal government when it comes to enforcing the law. It is the executive branch’s obligation to report to Congress what activities it is undertaking in order to be in legislative compliance and to receive funding.

If the DHS can’t handle being under the supervision of Congress, it should be defunded without an apology to the administration or to the mainstream media. Such matters are extremely serious and fall outside the realm of partisan bickering.

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/03/4250...llet-purchase/ (http://www.ijreview.com/2013/03/42505-congressman-dhs-refuses-to-answer-to-congress-on-1-6-billion-bullet-purchase/)

Mudpuppy
03-20-2013, 10:22 AM
DHS and the patriot act are a big fucking joke - both fueled by the false flag created by the war criminals who ran our government at the time.. they all should be tried for war crimes and handled appropriately..

Caveman
03-21-2013, 12:19 PM
the thing I try to remember is that there is always going to be a reason for inflation if nothing more than the big shots need another multimillion dollar bonus. Just buy what you can store what you have and remember that when the zombies come, conserve ammo and only use melee weapons unless being completely overrun.

telecast
03-22-2013, 02:28 PM
Police Departments Beg And Barter For Ammo While DHS Buys Up 1.6 Billion Rounds In Past Year

The nationwide shortage of ammunition has left many police departments scrambling to get their hands on the necessary rounds - with some even bartering among each other.
Meanwhile, Rep. Timothy Huelskamp (R-Kansas) says the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has failed to respond to multiple members of Congress asking why DHS bought more than 1.6 billion rounds (http://www.infowars.com/big-sis-refuses-to-answer-congress-on-ammo-purchases/) in the past year.
Police Chief Cameron Arthur of Jenks, Oklahoma says (http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/jenks/Jenks-Police-Deparment-supplements-weapons-costs-ammunition-shortage-with-donations), "Ammunition and assault weapons in general have skyrocketed...In addition to the fact, not only is it a lot more expensive, but the time to get it could be six months to a year, or in some cases even longer."
Arthur says he is waiting on an order placed last October and that many departments have begun to trade and barter with each other because of the high demand.
"Most police departments are having a very difficult time even getting the necessary ammunition for handguns, shotguns and especially rifles," Arthur said.
"With the delay in ammunition, some departments are limiting the number of rounds they carry in their handgun because of the shortage of ammunition. We get to the point where it is difficult to have enough ammo to train and also equip the officers."
Chief Pryor of Rollingwood, Texas says (http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/local/austin/police-dealing-with-ammunition-shortage) of the shortage:
"We started making phone calls and realized there is a waiting list up to a year. We have to limit the amount of times we go and train because we want to keep an adequate stock."
"Nobody can get us ammunition at this point," says (http://www.nbcmontana.com/news/No-practice-ammunition-available-for-Bozeman-Police/-/14594602/19342042/-/hwykrrz/-/index.html) Sgt. Jason LaCross of the Bozeman, Montana police department.
LaCross says that manufacturers are so far behind that they won't even give him a quote for an order.
"We have no estimated time on when it will even be available," LaCross says.
He worries that when ammunition is finally available the high price will squeeze the department's budget.
"The other options are to reduce the amount of training and things like that," he said.
The Hamilton County Sheriff's Department has also cut down (http://www.wdef.com/news/story/Law-Enforcement-Ammo-Issues/tJWpqzXKVkiq9IkE-hU94g.cspx) on firearm training due to the high cost and low supply of ammunition.
"The concern over firearms availability and ammunition availability and potentials of gun control certainly has impacted the availability of ammunition purchased locally," Sgt. Jody Mays says.
He says the department has cut a third of their normal in service firearm training:
"It's forced us...to use ammunition more economically."
Police Chief John Mabry in Marinette, Wisconsin says (http://ehextra.com/main.asp?SectionID=12&SubSectionID=35&ArticleID=14052), "Ammo is expensive and lot tougher to get. People don't have it in stock and it's back-ordered."
His colleague, Menominee Chief, Brett Botbyl agrees: "We're looking at a four to nine-month wait."
Some departments have even applied for grants to pay for the high-priced ammunition.
"The Florence Police Department is looking for some help filling its clips," reports (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130220/NEWS0103/302200096/Florence-police-hoping-ammo-grant) Cincinnati.com
Chief Tom Szurlinski says the grant would go a long way given the price and limited supply of ammunition.

Kosher
03-22-2013, 02:37 PM
Again, I wonder if the two are related. Its already been stated that they are not purchasing all at once, but over a period of 5 years. Smart acquisition strategy.

I think the bigger issue is the general public at large buying up ammo - at a minimum you'd have to say its probably both. But one without the other may not be so big of a deal.

telecast
03-22-2013, 03:19 PM
at a minimum you'd have to say its probably both. But one without the other may not be so big of a deal.

Exactly. Panic purchasing on top of the DHS seemingly overpurchase is combining to create the shortage.

NRA input on the ammp shortage.

Federal Law Enforcement Agencies Buy AmmunitionPosted on August 17, 2012


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You may recently have seen some in the Internet rumor mill feverishly repeating the obvious truth above, in an effort to stir up fear about recent acquisitions of ammunition by the Department of Homeland Security and a number of smaller agencies. The mildest writers have questioned why seemingly mundane agencies would need ammunition at all; more incendiary authors suggest that these government agencies are preparing for a war with the American people.

Much of the concern stems from a lack of understanding of the law enforcement functions carried about by officers in small federal agencies. These agents have the power to make arrests and execute warrants, just like their better-known counterparts at agencies like the FBI.

For instance, the Social Security Administration solicited offers (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=6c39a2a9f00a10187a1432388a3301e5&tab=core&_cview=0&fb_source=message) for 174,000 rounds of pistol ammunition. But the agency has 295 special agents who combat Social Security fraud that costs tax payers billions (http://oig.ssa.gov/newsroom/congressional-testimony/hearing-combating-disability-waste-fraud-and-abuse) each year, so the order works out to roughly 590 rounds of ammunition per agent for training, mandatory quarterly qualification shooting and duty use. More than a few NRA members would use that much ammunition in a weekend shooting class or plinking session.

Another recent rumor questioned a request for 46,000 rounds of.40-caliber ammo by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. NOAA inadvertently fueled that speculation through a clerical error that suggested the ammunition was destined for the National Weather Service. NOAA later clarified that the ammunition was actually for the little known Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/), which enforces laws against illegal fishing and marine life importation. The ammunition is for 63 personnel, amounting to about 730 rounds per officer.

The most widespread of the recent rumors involves a Department of Homeland Security contract for a maximum of 450 million rounds of .40-caliber jacketed hollow-points, to be supplied over the next five years.

After receiving numerous questions from his constituents regarding the contract, pro-Second Amendment U.S. Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R-Ga.) and his staff set out in search of the truth. In a press release (http://westmoreland.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=642&Itemid=372), Rep. Westmoreland's office explains:

If you take the number of agencies that will be using this ammunition – CBP, Citizenship and Immigration Services, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), ICE, the U.S. Secret Service, Transportation Security Administration, the DHS police force, and all the guards that protect the various buildings these agencies are housed in, and spread that out over 5 years, you start to see that 450 million rounds really isn't that large of an order. Especially considering it is used for training purposes like firing range and live fire exercises, on-the-job use (though that is very limited), and to shore up their supplies. In fact, there are 65,000 – 70,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS who would be covered under this … ammunition contract. If DHS were to purchase all 450 million rounds over 5 years, then that would equate to only about 1,384 rounds of ammo per year per law enforcement [officer] … assuming the lower estimate of only 65,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS. Considering those agents go through training exercises several times per year, that is not a lot of ammunition.

Perhaps most strangely, some have cited the purchase of hollow-point ammunition as evidence of the federal government's evil motives. Hollow-points are the defensive ammunition of choice for federal, state and local law enforcement officers across the country, just as they are for private citizens. These attacks are eerily similar to statements made by gun prohibitionists, who spent the much of the '70s, '80s and '90s complaining about "dum dum" bullets. (In fact, the Violence Policy Center's website still exhibits a publication lamenting that federal ammunition law "has no effect on today's generation of high-tech hollow-point ammunition.") The attacks also ignore the fact that federal agents, unlike average taxpayers on more limited budgets, normally train and qualify with their duty ammunition.

As most gun owners will agree, skepticism of government is healthy. But today, there are more than enough actual threats to the Second Amendment to keep gun owners busy. With two key Supreme Court decisions hanging by a one-vote margin, the Justice Department deeply involved in a cover-up of a disastrous Mexican gun smuggling operation, and President Obama touting a ban on popular semi-automatic firearms, there is no need to invent additional threats to our rights.

Kosher
03-22-2013, 03:45 PM
Exactly. Panic purchasing on top of the DHS seemingly overpurchase is combining to create the shortage.


I would further qualify by saying "Panic purchasing *caused in part* by some perceived (however errantly) notion that DHS is buying it all up."

telecast
03-22-2013, 04:08 PM
I would further qualify by saying "Panic purchasing *caused in part* by some perceived (however errantly) notion that DHS is buying it all up."

Maybe as of late, but not initially. The panic buying started immediately after Obama announced they were going after gun and magazine bans. This DHS thing has only hit in the last 3-4 weeks, but the panic buying started in December.