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View Full Version : Open carry at Taylor Council Meeting Tuesday



Bob
05-16-2010, 10:45 AM
http://www.thenewsherald.com/articles/2010/05/16/news/doc4beebfc6e3cd1879688405.txt

RoadZombie
05-16-2010, 12:37 PM
While I'm not against OC, I don't see what the big deal with it is. I've had my CCW for years. It's not hard to get...and personally, I prefer not to "advertise". I understand wanting to make local laws fall in compliance with state laws, but I'm not sure that this is the correct way to do it. If you want to get REALLY technical, even the state laws (especially those in the states where OC is completely banned) doesn't fall in line with the Constitution:

"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

...no where does it say "except in day care centers... hospitals... churches... etc." But hey, who really gives a shit about the 2nd amendment anyways? Ha! I mean, hell...look at the "Brady Bill", and that was a federal law! To me, all this OC brew-ha-ha is just a drop in the bucket so to speak. There are far bigger fish to fry than allowing "Bubba" to carry around his 6-shooter on his hip. Personally, I'd love to see the day when you go to register to vote and you get a free gun. All this bleeding heart liberal bullshit about "Guns kill people" is just that...bullshit. If there weren't guns, there'd be pointed sticks...or baseball bats...or bricks...or tire irons...etc. etc. etc. It's not the people having to jump through hoops and bend over backwards to get guns through "legal" channels that are commiting all the violent crimes. Hell, it took me almost a week to get my DE. If I wanted to, I could drive down to the city this afternoon and buy an unregistered handgun on the spot straight-up cash from some street thug. Point being, while I understand the intent of this movement, I think it would be more effective "attacking" the head instead of the tail.

I'll have to keep my eyes peeled to how this plays out.

Gas Man
05-16-2010, 02:03 PM
See I have a CCW/CWP and carry every day every where. I agree that there shouldn't be restrictions. It's my constitutional right. F everything else.

However, I 200% stand behind OC. I think there would be far less crime if people were walking around OC. A sign of force is a strong deterant.

The problem you get into is the inturpretation of OC/CCW in all aspects of life. Especially with things like carrying in your car.

Bob
05-16-2010, 02:28 PM
See I have a CCW/CWP and carry every day every where. I agree that there shouldn't be restrictions. It's my constitutional right. F everything else.

However, I 200% stand behind OC. I think there would be far less crime if people were walking around OC. A sign of force is a strong deterant.

The problem you get into is the inturpretation of OC/CCW in all aspects of life. Especially with things like carrying in your car.

I'm the same as you.

I wish more people would OC just so more people become more comfortable seeing guns. People freak out too easily.

Gas Man
05-16-2010, 09:09 PM
Oh yeah Bob. People are F'in scared sheep pacing around outside the hallel butcher shop in dearborn.

telecast
05-17-2010, 07:43 AM
In two recent cases, people with CCW's have pulled the trigger when it wasn't necessary. In the most recent, a grandmother was shot while cooking dinner by a stray bullet fired at a carjacker who was driving away. Hell, I'd want to shoot him too, but that's not in the rule book. If people who are taking the course to get the permit can't stay within the parameters, then those who just decide to open carry their pistol sure as hell won't. Get enough shootings from open carry's and watch what happens to public opinion.

This is a case where things are better off left alone. It's one thing to be able to carry a pistol, another to know how to use it. The open carry advocates will keep pushing their agenda until they get what they want, then every clown with less than half a brain will be holstered up. No thanks. In other words, be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.

RoadZombie
05-17-2010, 08:03 AM
While I do agree to a point, for every accidental death caused by a stray bullet shot by someone with a CCW, there is probably 20 caused by some "street thug" with an illeagaly obtained weapon. It is definitely a difficult point to argue, especially when I tend to have the belief that 95% of the people on the planet are f'ing morons. That is my major contention with the open carry movement as well. Morons are dangerous enough without weapons.

telecast
05-17-2010, 08:29 AM
While I do agree to a point, for every accidental death caused by a stray bullet shot by someone with a CCW, there is probably 20 caused by some "street thug" with an illeagaly obtained weapon.

Agree 100%. It's unfortunate that the law abiding citizens have to eat shit because of the assholes, but for some reason it's a much bigger deal when joe-carry defends himself than when a punk shoots a kid for his bicycle. I guess it's because law abiding licensed CCW's are expected to follow the rules, but no one has any expectations for a criminal.


It is definitely a difficult point to argue, especially when I tend to have the belief that 95% of the people on the planet are f'ing morons. That is my major contention with the open carry movement as well. Morons are dangerous enough without weapons.

Exactly. You can always argue that it's better to have a higher number of legally armed morons than illegally armed thugs, and that's true. The problem is, they're still morons!

Mudpuppy
05-17-2010, 10:23 AM
lots of good stuff in here.. i don't really feel it necessary for me to elaborate y'all said it very eloquently..

the bottom line (this is the part i will add) is people are f'king weak, lazy and pretty much useless - our walmart nation.. want it all but don't want to have to work for it.. stuck in the hypothetical too worried about what might happen.. every state should adopt texas law and open carry automatic weapons if they so desire.. who do the laws apply to? the law abiding citizens.. criminals are criminals because SURVEY SAYS they don't follow the f'king law..

i will leave you with this quote from one of the greatest men to ever live:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Mad Dog
05-17-2010, 06:06 PM
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Agreed!

Now i'm just going to sit here for a few hours/days and watch Gas Mans new Pic!

Bob
05-17-2010, 07:44 PM
In two recent cases, people with CCW's have pulled the trigger when it wasn't necessary. In the most recent, a grandmother was shot while cooking dinner by a stray bullet fired at a carjacker who was driving away. Hell, I'd want to shoot him too, but that's not in the rule book. If people who are taking the course to get the permit can't stay within the parameters, then those who just decide to open carry their pistol sure as hell won't. Get enough shootings from open carry's and watch what happens to public opinion.

This is a case where things are better off left alone. It's one thing to be able to carry a pistol, another to know how to use it. The open carry advocates will keep pushing their agenda until they get what they want, then every clown with less than half a brain will be holstered up. No thanks. In other words, be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.

So its ok that any dumb ass criminal carries now? I'd rather have the choice to carry and protect myself and family without having to go through a class since criminals are arming themselves without taking any classes or training. A law abiding citizen open carrying is not going to go around randomly shooting people.

telecast
05-17-2010, 09:27 PM
I'd rather have the choice to carry and protect myself and family without having to go through a class

Yeah? No shit?

You and everyone else.

These were 'law abiding citizens that pulled the trigger, in both cases.

So, you're stating that a guy who is not required to get the training will carry better than someone who is required to be trained? A guy who only has to strap a gun on and walk down the street will be more capable of staying within the law than someone who has been given instruction?

Wow.

Mad Dog
05-17-2010, 10:38 PM
Here's a site you guys might be interieted in. Check out how many states have open carry laws on the books.
http://opencarry.org/

Gas Man
05-18-2010, 01:04 AM
Great points to the negative of OC. Need to consider that for sure.

As far as the class. That is in the laws of CCW. That should be an action to change those laws. For example... in PA you can apply for a CCW for $25 with no class and get it as long as your record is clean (like Mich). In Indiana you can even get a lifetime CCW for like $75 (don't remember the for sure amount but it was less than our 4.5-5.0 yr CWP). Our CCW laws are better than before but still jacked. Perhaps a better reform to that would be a better alternative to OC. IDK

telecast
05-18-2010, 07:53 AM
Here's a site you guys might be interieted in. Check out how many states have open carry laws on the books.
http://opencarry.org/

Good info MD, thanks. The problem here are the local communities, like the one Bob posted, that have their own ordinances. Taylor isn't the only one. So unless you know the rules and laws of each place you're going to pass through, it's virtually impossible to open carry. Add to it the fact that you can't open carry in your car and there's almost no chance.

Those facts are pretty much the reason why you don't see people OC'ing. They're also the reason most people don't even know you can OC in Michigan. If people knew, there would be public outcry in the SE part of the state, and other localized places like Grand Rapids, Traverse City, etc. My concern is that the open carry advocates' efforts will put a fine point on it, people will become aware, and two things will happen:

A) The previously mentioned morons will start to carry.
B) The general populace will start making plans to change it.


As far as the class. That is in the laws of CCW. That should be an action to change those laws...Our CCW laws are better than before but still jacked. Perhaps a better reform to that would be a better alternative to OC. IDK

I think you nailed it on the head. Better training for sure, and a better background check. Ease some of the CCW restrictions.

Did any of you see the idiot that shot the guy in a road range situation a month ago? The vic was turning to walk away, the CCW guy shot him. You could look at that guy on the news and tell he shouldn't have had a CCW. He looked like a nervous little rat in a cage.

When you think about relaxing open carry laws, you have to look outside of yourself, take a step away from your own abilities/knowledge of handguns, and be objective. Take a look around you when you go to a mall, the gas station, or even driving down the road. A huge percentage of those people do not posess your knowledge of firearms, firearm laws, ability to shoot a firearm, common sense, or an ability to control their temper.

Do you really want all those clowns carrying a sidearm?

No way.

_DK_
05-18-2010, 08:15 AM
So what do you propose then? Some sort of IQ test?


It's either MORE control by the Government or none at all... You really cant have both ways.

Currently the CPL requirements are fairly slim, with each "instructor" teaching something different and sometimes just teaching plain bullshit... Or even others just passing out cert's for money( or so I've read, I have not witnessed that)...

If someone wants to carry a gun, so be it... There shouldn't be any more laws or restrictions on it...if they fuck up and hurt someone then punish them like any other criminal.

We have the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution to keep and bear arms AND our State of Michigan Constitutional right to self defense...

The 269 page book of Michigan firearms laws is a flippin joke. (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf).. Half the laws contradict each other and just cause confusion by the general public

telecast
05-18-2010, 08:39 AM
So what do you propose then? Some sort of IQ test?

Wouldn't hurt!



It's either MORE control by the Government or none at all... You really cant have both ways.

Exactly, and there lies the problem. What it all comes down to is public opinion. Currently, you can't smoke in any public building. Yet, you could open carry a gun in many of those places. So according to the government second hand smoke is more dangerous that an idiot with a handgun. How does that make sense? It doesn't, but since only a small portion of the public smokes these days there aren't enough people to make waves. If it ever builds up enough steam this is going to go the same way, except that in this case it'll be the opponents that outnumber the rest of us.


Currently the CPL requirements are fairly slim, with each "instructor" teaching something different and sometimes just teaching plain bullshit... Or even others just passing out cert's for money( or so I've read, I have not witnessed that)...

Standardize training. Arrest and convict those that are handing out certificates with no training. Maybe cap the training fees.

I'm not saying that any of this makes sense. It's definitely screwed up the way it is. My main point here is sometimes it's best to let a sleeping dog ly.

Mudpuppy
05-18-2010, 09:58 AM
Everyone should be allowed to carry concealed or open carry and let God sort it out if people are too dumb to.. I think saying it's bad to allow people to carry because a few dumb asses will shoot themselves or the wrong people is like saying none of us should ride motorcycles or drive cars because some people might run over pedestrians or take mass amounts of meth amphetamines and go on a 3 day killing spree on our motor-sicle...

Cops have mass amounts of training and some choose to give someone 3 seconds warning then shoot them in the back as they sit on their motorcycle.. Ban guns from cops? They did in the UK and look where that got them - violence has skyrocketed.. London is 7th most dangerous city in the world..

Just like driving a car, riding a motorcycle, owning an electric turkey knife, a butcher knife, a bow and arrow or any other means of weaponry anyone that doesn't use it properly should face the consequences.. this society is so f'kd up with it's zero accountability.. oh it's not my fault i wasn't trained properly.. oh i didn't realize with the safety off the gun would fire.. blah blah f'king blah.. nut up or shut the f'k up.. and everyone should gun up and let the weak weed themselves out..

_DK_
05-18-2010, 10:05 AM
You cant really equate it to smoking... a gun doesn't just waft around into other peoples personal space... Besides I think more people smoke than what the surveys say... just look around in your daily travels. I would say I see people smoking in about half the vehicles on the road. According to the last thing I read, 1 in 46 Michiganders are licensed to carry a handgun.

Personally I don't smoke and I don't think the state should have had the right to ban it in businesses. That said I am sort of glad they did since now I don't have to breathe that shit in while I'm at work.

If they had "real" training requirements it would cost hundreds of dollars and unfortunately just because someone has money it doesn't mean they have brains too.

I have spent an additional $450( not including ammo) on further training above and beyond what the law requires because I realized I didn't learn enough in the class I took.

Mudpuppy
05-18-2010, 10:10 AM
I agree it's great not to have to breathe the shit but at what cost? It's a vehicle for them to strip what rights we have left.. I don't like the government controlling anything..

telecast
05-18-2010, 12:34 PM
I think saying it's bad to allow people to carry because a few dumb asses will shoot themselves or the wrong people is like saying none of us should ride motorcycles or drive cars because some people might run over pedestrians...

That's an interesting analogy, but it's further off than my comparing it to smoking. A motorcycle is transportation, liesure activity, sport. But, there is only one reason to carry a gun, period.

Ok, two reasons if you're a bad guy.

It looks like everyone who has posted in this thread is a gun supporter, and while we all agree on the right to carry there's a pretty good discussion with some disagreement on details. Get a bunch of non-gun people involved and it'll get worse.

Again, I'm not against open carry, nor am I against CCW. What I'm against is shedding too much light on something that a vast majority of the public doesn't even know exists.

Mudpuppy
05-18-2010, 01:36 PM
Well you could use a gun to hunt or for target practice..

I like the devil's advocate approach for sure and you have some good points..

Anti-gun people, like anti-hunters, are all pretty much ignorant and never have any valid facts or reasons.. they are the first to buy a new home and displace wildlife without a care in the world but god forbid you do what man has been doing for millions of years and hunt for food - that is cruel to the animals.. and the anti-gun people are even worse.. they are on such thin ice it's boiling water..

but very good point - why broadcast it.. just leave it as is so the anti-gun people don't start passing a bunch of new dumb laws.. either that or move to texas..

telecast
05-18-2010, 02:15 PM
either that or move to texas..

You sure? I used to live in Dallas and don't recall it being open carry. If you check out the maps in the link MD posted it says Texas isn't a traditional open carry state. On the other hand, my BIL's family had a ranch about 4 hours west of Fort Worth and we always walked around with a gun on. They liked to try and plink tarantulas off the rocks!

But their gun shops were crazy. There'd be a display of 12 gauge pump guns with 20" deer barrels along with boxes of 00 buckshot, right there to grab. I remember seeing a guy buy a gun and a box of shells, take it out to the parking lot, load it, and stick it behind the seat of his 'Vette.

I do recall seeing guys with Stetsons and Tony Llamas walking around downtown with sixguns strapped on, but I was told they were Texas Rangers.

Mudpuppy
05-18-2010, 05:42 PM
i thought texas was open carry and fully auto was a-ok.. maybe i am wrong.. in my mind it is..

telecast
05-18-2010, 06:53 PM
Full auto is a federal law, you have to be a licensed collector and buy federal stamps. No idea what a federal stamp is.

Bob
05-18-2010, 08:24 PM
i thought texas was open carry and fully auto was a-ok.. maybe i am wrong.. in my mind it is..

It's not full auto. If it was I'd be moving right now. LOL ;)

However I do think in Texas you can shoot/kill someone to not only defend yourself but also your property. I like that idea of being able to blow someones head off for trying to steal something from my house, garage or car.

Gas Man
05-18-2010, 10:40 PM
i like that idea of being able to blow someones head off for trying to steal something from my house, garage or car.
ftw!!!

telecast
05-19-2010, 07:54 AM
Well, it made the Channel 4 news last night at 11:00. What's weird is they NEVER MENTIONED open carry, or the fact that Michigan is an open carry state. They talked about people who are 'licensed' to carry a gun being able to carry it legally when they want to, and the fact that Taylor's ordinance opposes the state charter. They briefly touched on the fact that you cannot carry in some business, but you can in others, and pointed out it's ok to have one in City Hall. To the uninformed it sounded more like people with CCW's (licenses) were protesting that, not OC.

Really draws attention to just how bad news reporting is. They missed the real story completely. Ok by me, so far so good, staying under the radar!

The City Council said they'll take the matter up in the next few weeks.

Mudpuppy
05-19-2010, 09:55 AM
Well the news is a joke.. of course they will skew the OC story..

telecast
05-19-2010, 12:32 PM
Well the news is a joke.. of course they will skew the OC story..


Yeah, but being as most of them are left wing bleeding heart liberals, I would've expected them to skew in the opposite direction and preach doom and gloom. It was surprising they missed the whole point.

Mudpuppy
05-19-2010, 05:25 PM
Yeah, but being as most of them are left wing bleeding heart liberals, I would've expected them to skew in the opposite direction and preach doom and gloom. It was surprising they missed the whole point.

they are too dumb..

snofrog
05-20-2010, 11:00 PM
You cant really equate it to smoking... a gun doesn't just waft around into other peoples personal space...
.


Bullets do