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Inflame
02-23-2010, 10:59 PM
It's a 1999 F4. Bike was sitting for a little while, went to go start it, battery was dead. We jumped it, bike started but since my friend forgot to set the choke it died.. We tried to go again but this time it wouldn't start.

We tried jumping it again, the bike wouldn't start. So I charged the battery, again, the bike wouldn't start.

I bought a new battery, bike wouldn't start.

I hear the starter relay clicking but I can faintly hear the starter gear trying to come out.

All fuses are good.

Is my starter dead? I connected it directly to the battery and still, no avail :(

Are starters hard to do?

Gas Man
02-24-2010, 12:12 AM
Can you acess the solenoid on the starter? Clean up the contacts?

Inflame
02-24-2010, 12:45 AM
Can you access the solenoid on the starter? Clean up the contacts?

I'll see what I can do... It's pretty crammed in there.

Mudpuppy
02-24-2010, 10:30 AM
i wouldn't recommend jumping it unless you have to.. better to charge the battery up overnight or for a few hours.. i assume you are jumping it off a car? good way to fry the electronics..

RoadZombie
02-24-2010, 05:40 PM
Sounds like it is the starter. Did you have the engine grounded to the battery when you jumpered directly from the positive battery post to the starter post? If it won't spin the starter at that point, chances are that it (the starter) is toast. Make sure you're reading >12VDC at the battery terminals as well.

I don't have knowledge of your bike specifically, but in general starters aren't TOO hard to replace. You most likely will have to pull a side engine casing to replace it, so be prepared to pick up a new gasket. Check a service manual to be sure...or if you have a good parts guy at your local dealership, he might even be able to walk you through it.

Inflame
02-24-2010, 10:50 PM
Sounds like it is the starter. Did you have the engine grounded to the battery when you jumpered directly from the positive battery post to the starter post? If it won't spin the starter at that point, chances are that it (the starter) is toast. Make sure you're reading >12VDC at the battery terminals as well.

If you're talking about the regular battery ground, then yes.

Brand new battery. Time to order one off ebay! :(

RoadZombie
02-24-2010, 11:56 PM
Might be even easier than I led on. Looking at the shop manual for my Ninja, it installs like a car starter...just a couple bolts on the outside of the engine and it pulls right out. Hopefully your CBR is similar.

Gas Man
02-25-2010, 01:09 AM
I wouldn't call it quits on the starter just yet. And I would never junk it till you had it checked out at a starter shop.

And yes... when jumping a bike... its ok. just be sure the car's motor isn't running. Cars alternators put out too many amps... will fry your little bike wires.

As far as a battery. consider checking with your local HD. They carry REAL nice AGM batteries for bikes. Decent warrenty (1yr full 2yr prorated aka norm). Certainly other more expensive batteries will carry a better warrenty, but they cost more to begin with plus the warrenty that you have to ship the battery is useless when your bike dies the week before a ride event.

Is the starter making any noise?

Mudpuppy
02-25-2010, 11:21 AM
i would never jump a bike off a car.. bad idea.. if all else fails push start the motherfucker.. do you have any idea what the operating voltage of a car is? try like 40,000 volts.. so you are going to dump that into your tiny bike battery and electronics? gee that's smart - NOT!

telecast
02-25-2010, 01:32 PM
I have a dumb question. It sounds like the battery has been in the bike the whole time? If so, have you ever pulled the cables and cleaned the terminals? I can't tell you the number of times I've seen this as the only problem, even with trying to jump it.

Also, it's probably not a good idea to let the bike's system recharge a discharged battery. I'd start by pulling the battery, cleaning eveything, and charging it off the bike, then reinstall and see what happens.

My worthless $0.02.

Mudpuppy
02-25-2010, 06:04 PM
I have a dumb question. It sounds like the battery has been in the bike the whole time? If so, have you ever pulled the cables and cleaned the terminals? I can't tell you the number of times I've seen this as the only problem, even with trying to jump it.

Also, it's probably not a good idea to let the bike's system recharge a discharged battery. I'd start by pulling the battery, cleaning eveything, and charging it off the bike, then reinstall and see what happens.

My worthless $0.02.

Yes good advice.

And what most people don't know is a bike actually drains the battery at idle it does not charge it. When you are riding it will charge - say 15mph+ (+/- 20%) and over..

RoadZombie
02-25-2010, 07:49 PM
i would never jump a bike off a car.. bad idea.. if all else fails push start the motherfucker.. do you have any idea what the operating voltage of a car is? try like 40,000 volts.. so you are going to dump that into your tiny bike battery and electronics? gee that's smart - NOT!

...operating voltage is 12VDC, same as a bike. 40KV across is the plugs and wouldn't come into play when jump starting. Jumping off a car battery (on or off doesn't really matter...although if you can't start it without, something is SERIOUSLY wrong) isn't going to hurt anything as long as you connect terminal to terminal and you havent bypassed the main fuse in your bike. I wouldn't reccomend it as normal practice, but in a pinch it'll do.

Mudpuppy
02-26-2010, 01:44 AM
well i am no electrician but i have read and my electrician FIL have said jumping a bike off a car is bad news.. i assumed it was the operating field that came into play but i guess not.. regardless i don't do it..

RoadZombie
02-26-2010, 08:53 PM
Personally, I'd rather just toss the battery on a charger for a few hours if I was at home. As you nailed right on the head...bikes don't charge at idle and they're also not the most effective either. They're designed to keep a healthy battery charged, not charge a dead one. But if you're in the middle of nowhere...a jump gets the job done.

Mudpuppy
02-27-2010, 10:52 PM
or a push start..

RoadZombie
02-28-2010, 12:19 AM
True...unless you're on flat ground and the only help around is a little old lady, her Buick, and a set of jumper cables. LoL

Inflame
02-28-2010, 03:18 PM
Well, I just pulled the starter and connected it to a battery charger. It spings, but it's REALLY weak. I'm not sure how it's supposed to be, but the new starter will be here early next week and I'll see how that one is.

All the terminals are clean also.

Also a note about the electronics, they all work fine.

Mudpuppy
03-01-2010, 11:22 AM
True...unless you're on flat ground and the only help around is a little old lady, her Buick, and a set of jumper cables. LoL

Funny - we went to the gap and one of us (pickle) left their bike on while we ate the poisonous food (that i later had to evacuate from my body quickly in a general store outhouse with 1,000 flies in 100 degree heat in full leathers - not my proudest moment) and we had to push start him.. not fun in 100 degree heat.. and it seemed like the parking lot went uphill both ways..

telecast
03-01-2010, 12:22 PM
...in a general store outhouse with 1,000 flies in 100 degree heat in full leathers...

Just to be clear, there were a thousand flies wearing leathers in 100 degree heat?

Mudpuppy
03-01-2010, 02:05 PM
no flies wearing leathers just swarming me.. it was like a scene out of dante's inferno.. i think i heard dueling banjos as i made my "deposit" into the hole cut into the earth..

Inflame
03-04-2010, 12:43 AM
New starter is in, bike won't start... We contacted the old starter with the battery ground and ran a wire to the starter power terminal from the relay, and it spun so the relay works fine...

I'm dumbfounded as to why the bike won't start :( Anyone live close to 16 and mound wanna take a look? :) lol

- Bart

telecast
03-04-2010, 08:49 AM
Sounds like you're poking around in the dark. When I was a kid in high-school and took a power technology class, we were told there were three things to check first:

Fuel
Spark
Air

Is the bike getting fuel? Have you disconnected the fuel line and checked that it's getting through, and if so, then is it getting through the carb/injectors to the cylinders? Can you pull the air filters and see if there's any fuel squirting in when you twist the throttle? Maybe pull a spark plug and see if there's gas in the cylinder.

Spark: Did you remove a plug, ground it to the engine, and see if there's spark?

Air: Any obstructions?


The way you described it:


We jumped it, bike started but since my friend forgot to set the choke it died.. We tried to go again but this time it wouldn't start.

It sounds to me like a fuel issue. Everything was working fine, then not. The battery/starter were a result, not a cause.

If you find out you're lacking fuel, start at the petcock if you have one, or the end of the fuel line if you don't, and work your way toward the cylinder.

I can't recall, did you ever try starting fluid to see if it'd fire up for a second? If it does, then it's a fuel issue.

I'm a good one for pulling a plug as soon as something doesn't fire. It lets me check for gas in the cylinder, spark, and the plug's condition at the same time.

Gas Man
03-04-2010, 09:02 AM
So lets determine...

what's it doing?

Cranking over but not firing up?

Not cranking over?

Inflame
03-04-2010, 10:03 AM
Not cranking at all :(

Mudpuppy
03-04-2010, 11:28 AM
easy solution - buy a Yamaha

Gas Man
03-04-2010, 12:01 PM
Not cranking at all :(
That's what I thought.

So fuel and spark aren't the issue YET!

Did you check the solenoid contacts?

Under a cover like this... next to the starter
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/BDM/Wrenchin/DSC00589.jpg

Or like this
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/BDM/OUCH/Rebuild/Day6053.jpg

Or on the right of this pic
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/Ultra%20Classic/Mods/NightRider015.jpg

They get dirty and it won't pull in. Just click with no starter spin

Dirty:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/BDM/Wrenchin/IMG_2358.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/BDM/Wrenchin/IMG_2359.jpg

Cleaned up with some sandpaper or emry cloth
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/BDM/Wrenchin/IMG_2362.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/BDM/Wrenchin/IMG_2361.jpg

Inflame
03-04-2010, 12:33 PM
I'll check it out today after cleaning some of the grounds. This bike became more of a project than I wanted :mad:

- Bart

RoadZombie
03-04-2010, 05:47 PM
Do you have a way to take pictures? Every bike is different. Most Jap bikes that I've seen have had seperate solenoids, unlike HDs. Which side of the "relay" were you taking power from...the battery side or the starter side? I'd probably be able to tell you what is going on within 5 minutes of looking at it, but have never been good at troubleshooting over the phone/net. LoL Pics would definitely help. It's going to be one of 4 things...well, 3 since you already ruled the starter out:

1) Starter - ruled out
2) Primary wiring / start button (wires from the solenoid to the handlebar starter button...or the button itself)...there may also be a relay between the starter button and the primary side of the solenoid. Check for bare wires...obvious corrosion...etc. Check resistance between terminals with an ohm meter. Readings should be either a dead short 0-1 or 2 ohms, or an open (usually displayed as "-OL-" on most DMMs). Any readings inbetween are suspect.
3) Secondary wiring...the large cables from the battery to the solenoid and from the solenoid to the starter). Same as above.
4) The solenoid itself. Some bikes do have a solenoid that can be cleaned up like Gas showed you...some cannot. Measure resistance across the large terminals. It should be completely open when the start button isn't being pushed, and a dead short (<2 Ohms) when it is pushed.

...the starting system on a bike (or a car for that matter) isn't really TOO complex. Probably one of the easier electronics systems to troubleshoot.

Inflame
03-04-2010, 10:53 PM
Do you have a way to take pictures? Every bike is different. Most Jap bikes that I've seen have had seperate solenoids, unlike HDs. Which side of the "relay" were you taking power from...the battery side or the starter side? I'd probably be able to tell you what is going on within 5 minutes of looking at it, but have never been good at troubleshooting over the phone/net. LoL Pics would definitely help. It's going to be one of 4 things...well, 3 since you already ruled the starter out:

1) Starter - ruled out
2) Primary wiring / start button (wires from the solenoid to the handlebar starter button...or the button itself)...there may also be a relay between the starter button and the primary side of the solenoid. Check for bare wires...obvious corrosion...etc. Check resistance between terminals with an ohm meter. Readings should be either a dead short 0-1 or 2 ohms, or an open (usually displayed as "-OL-" on most DMMs). Any readings inbetween are suspect.
3) Secondary wiring...the large cables from the battery to the solenoid and from the solenoid to the starter). Same as above.
4) The solenoid itself. Some bikes do have a solenoid that can be cleaned up like Gas showed you...some cannot. Measure resistance across the large terminals. It should be completely open when the start button isn't being pushed, and a dead short (<2 Ohms) when it is pushed.

...the starting system on a bike (or a car for that matter) isn't really TOO complex. Probably one of the easier electronics systems to troubleshoot.

1. True.
2. Starter button is sending a signal to the relay, so that can be ruled out correct?
3. and 4. There is no starter solenoid. I'll take pictures tomorrow. I'm going to call up the Triumph dealership tomorrow because there are a few guys there that know the F4's really well. I'm hoping one of them can come by and check it out.

- Bart

RoadZombie
03-05-2010, 12:45 AM
Relay/solenoid...same difference basically. It's in-line with the thick cable from the battery. Looking at the wiring diagram for my Ninja, it's calling it a relay too. If I was closer, wouldn't hesitate to look at it. 16 and Mound is a bit of a hike for me.

The test you did with the starter off the bike when you contacted the starter to the battery ground, you used the starter button to spin the starter? It sounds like it could be a grounding problem. Check the negative battery cable, especially where it meets the frame or engine block.

Inflame
03-05-2010, 09:38 AM
Relay/solenoid...same difference basically. It's in-line with the thick cable from the battery. Looking at the wiring diagram for my Ninja, it's calling it a relay too. If I was closer, wouldn't hesitate to look at it. 16 and Mound is a bit of a hike for me.

The test you did with the starter off the bike when you contacted the starter to the battery ground, you used the starter button to spin the starter? It sounds like it could be a grounding problem. Check the negative battery cable, especially where it meets the frame or engine block.

Relay clicks when you try starting, but maybe it's not supplying enough power? How much is supposed to go to the starter?

The negative is grounded to the Starter, always has been. Even when the bike was running.

Gas Man
03-05-2010, 10:01 AM
The ground is probably grounded to the starter mounting bolts which are screwed into the case... which is norm.

Gas Man
03-05-2010, 10:03 AM
Another thing to consider... have you checked operation of the safety switches? Is the remote/signal power activating at the starter when you press the start button? If not... maybe the safeties.

Clutch & sidestand

These will both inhibit the power to the starter.

Inflame
03-05-2010, 11:16 AM
Another thing to consider... have you checked operation of the safety switches? Is the remote/signal power activating at the starter when you press the start button? If not... maybe the safeties.

Clutch & sidestand

These will both inhibit the power to the starter.

To me it sounds like the starter is getting power, but not enough juice to turn the motor. How would I test the clutch and kickstand switches?

I'm able to turn the motor by hand, so it's not seized lol it was running literally 5 seconds before it shut off and I don't think a Honda engine will seize that fast too.

- Bart

RoadZombie
03-05-2010, 07:05 PM
The ground is probably grounded to the starter mounting bolts which are screwed into the case... which is norm.

I was refering to the negative battery cable. Corroded main cables = weak starter as well.

You should be getting 12V at the starter when you push the starter button. It's sounding more and more like either a poor ground back to the battery or the relay. Just because it "click"s, doesn't mean it's good. The pictures that Gas posted are proof of that. I'm sure his solenoid/relay "click"ed too, but with the amount of shit built up on the contacts, it adds resistance to the circuit...making the starter spin weakly.

Try this first...measure resistance from a starter mounting bolt (Bare metal! Painted will not work!) to the negative battery terminal. This should be <1 ohm

Second, pull the relay off the bike. Using the battery, or a 12V power supply if you have one, apply 12V to the trigger terminals (where the smaller wires connect) on the relay. Then measure resistance across the large terminals on the relay. This should also be <1 ohm.

If either of those read >1 ohm, chances are that's where the problem lies.

Gas Man
03-05-2010, 11:33 PM
To me it sounds like the starter is getting power, but not enough juice to turn the motor. How would I test the clutch and kickstand switches?

I'm able to turn the motor by hand, so it's not seized lol it was running literally 5 seconds before it shut off and I don't think a Honda engine will seize that fast too.

- Bart
Unplug them... check for resistance from the 2 leads from each switch. Activate them and see if it changes.

Inflame
03-08-2010, 10:36 AM
Unplug them... check for resistance from the 2 leads from each switch. Activate them and see if it changes.

I'll do that tonight. Thank you.

- Bart

Cafe
03-09-2010, 04:43 PM
yea i would be checking the ground's. have you pulled your starter loose yet? perhaps you have a chewed up part on your starter gear and its just slipping. I would love to see pics of your starter gear. all of the safety switches normaly work off of a ground. so if you have a bad ground it will not work. But from the sounds of it i think you could have sheared something in your starter. Have you tried push starting it yet? i know some one said something about it and that is a quick way to find out if it is in fact a starter issue or a ground issue.

if it start;s after push starting it pull the starter and get it on the bench. Get your battery charger out and hook your negative to the starter housing and touch the start side terminal with the positive. you should see the starter gear pop out and spin. if it is only spinning and your gear is not popping out than try tapping on the starter or prying the gear out very gently. this may get it working again but i would not trust the starter after that.

Inflame
03-09-2010, 07:57 PM
New starter, bought it impulsively.

There is no gear that pops out, it's constantly out. Push starting isn't possible cause the ground is so cold and the salt + other shit won't let the tire grip.

I'm really thinking it's a ground or the relay is bad/not supplying enough power.

I have a guy coming this weekend to check it out, he's a bike mechanic.

- Bart

Bob
03-09-2010, 10:23 PM
Any luck man?

I had a problem with my FZR where I'd have a hard time starting it. It ended up being a connection to the relay. I'd have to shake the relay under the seat and start it at the same time.

Inflame
03-09-2010, 11:28 PM
Any luck man?

I had a problem with my FZR where I'd have a hard time starting it. It ended up being a connection to the relay. I'd have to shake the relay under the seat and start it at the same time.

I've been so busy with school and work that I haven't had time to even touch the bike. :( It's just sitting there begging to be started too haha

- Bart

Mudpuppy
03-09-2010, 11:58 PM
begging to be started and thrashed on like a gutter slut i am sure..

Cafe
03-10-2010, 08:20 PM
New starter, bought it impulsively.

There is no gear that pops out, it's constantly out. Push starting isn't possible cause the ground is so cold and the salt + other shit won't let the tire grip.

I'm really thinking it's a ground or the relay is bad/not supplying enough power.

I have a guy coming this weekend to check it out, he's a bike mechanic.

- Bart

ok some starters have a gear that pops out. try push starting in second gear it wont shock the back tire. Thats how i have to start the mini crotch rocket moped thing that my buddy likes to leave at my house for 2 years.

RoadZombie
03-10-2010, 10:57 PM
Yeah, was thinking about the same...should be able to pop-start in 2nd now. Ground is fairly clear by now.

Inflame
03-17-2010, 07:07 PM
Took the stator cover off and everything looks good in there.

Hit the starter button and the starter spins.

Checked the voltage with a multimeter and it's only 7.5 volts to the starter. But engine still won't crank even if starter is being jumped from a battery charger.

Engine turns by hand from the flywheel.

Kickstand switch is fine. Even jumped it with a wire.

Going to try and bump start it in about 10 minutes.

My cousin is coming over on Friday because he's really curious why it won't crank too... Owned multiple bikes, was a mechanic for 15 years now a manufacturing engineer while doing automotive repair on the side.

Pulled the spark plugs just to make sure if it's flooded or not.

Inflame
03-17-2010, 07:24 PM
Just tried bump starting in 3rd gear, rear tire just slides.

Gas Man
03-18-2010, 12:17 AM
I've always just had the best luck with 2nd gear on push starts

Inflame
03-28-2010, 12:48 PM
Bike starts and runs now :)

telecast
03-28-2010, 01:03 PM
Ok, no where's near enough info. The answers to this puzzle might save someone else a lot of grief.

What was wrong? How'd you find it?

Glad it's running!

RedneckMedic
03-28-2010, 06:40 PM
good job but ya what happened maybe we could get some pics too

Inflame
03-28-2010, 10:09 PM
Ok, no where's near enough info. The answers to this puzzle might save someone else a lot of grief.

What was wrong? How'd you find it?

Glad it's running!

When I put the new cam chain tensioner on, I didn't take into account that the old one is self adjusting. I adjusted the new one to the old one's settings, it was WAY to tight for the starter to turn the motor.

Now, I can't keep it running :/ The carbs are dumping TONS of fuel at idle.

Carbs look clean, I cleaned the floats and I'm going to clean the vacuum side tomorrow.

- Bart

Gas Man
03-28-2010, 10:11 PM
Well glad you figured out this one step. Take some pics for our viewing pleasure.

Inflame
03-28-2010, 10:14 PM
Well glad you figured out this one step. Take some pics for our viewing pleasure.

Taking pics distracts me haha, I guess I'll take some tomorrow for you guys :D

- Bart

RoadZombie
03-28-2010, 10:32 PM
When I put the new cam chain tensioner on, I didn't take into account that the old one is self adjusting. I adjusted the new one to the old one's settings, it was WAY to tight for the starter to turn the motor.

Now, I can't keep it running :/ The carbs are dumping TONS of fuel at idle.

Carbs look clean, I cleaned the floats and I'm going to clean the vacuum side tomorrow.

- Bart

Sounds like your float needles are stuck open.

Inflame
03-28-2010, 11:44 PM
Sounds like your float needles are stuck open.

Is it that long needle that goes through the whole carb?

Chris300s
03-29-2010, 09:34 AM
Is it that long needle that goes through the whole carb?
No, that's the mixture needle. The float needles will look like a brass bolt with a pin in the center (they screw in). The tang on the float arm will push against it to open and close, maintaining a constant level of fuel in the bowl. They're cheap to replace, just order a rebuild kit and freshen up the gaskets too.
It's under the white plastic thing in the upper right hand corner of this picture.
http://www.digitalpeer.com/request/file.php?id=549&postid=302

Better yet, get someone with more experience tuning ricer carbs to come over and give you a hand. Where are you located?


Chris

Gas Man
03-29-2010, 10:26 AM
I've done only a few sets. But here's some pics of a set of carbs on a Shadow Sabre.

Here's the same type of float
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/Lift%20Wrenching/Sean/Sean046.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/Lift%20Wrenching/Sean/Sean033.jpg

If you have a service manual you can set the float hieght
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/Lift%20Wrenching/Sean/Sean049.jpg

Inflame
03-30-2010, 01:47 AM
I cleaned the float side of the carbs, everything was spotless in there when I opened it up. I'm currently doing the vacuum side right now.

Inflame
03-31-2010, 11:30 PM
All cleaned up and it still won't idle :confused:

RoadZombie
04-01-2010, 04:12 PM
Still dumping fuel? Try replacing the float needles and seats (if possible).

If it's not dumping fuel, but just won't idle...you probably need to sync the carbs or adjust the float height. Too high of a fuel level will flood out an engine. Too low will starve an engine of fuel (especially at idle, as your pilot/idle jet normally sits higher than your main). Syncing the carbs so that all 4 are drawing the same vacuum will also help...especially at idle. Otherwise the engine is basically fighting itself...i.e. one cylinder will want to run at a faster or slower pace than any of the other 4.

Carbs are a pain in the ass. Pretty much dealing with the same issue myself at the moment.

Inflame
04-02-2010, 03:52 AM
Hahahaha I had two of the vacuum hoses crossed.... uhg she runs perfectly fine now :)

Bob
04-02-2010, 08:46 AM
Glad you figured it out!

Inflame
04-02-2010, 07:09 PM
Glad you figured it out!

Me too!! Thank you everyone that helped me out!! I really appreciate you guys because on CBR Forum.net it would take 2-3 days to get a single response!

- Bart

Bob
04-03-2010, 12:09 PM
Me too!! Thank you everyone that helped me out!! I really appreciate you guys because on CBR Forum.net it would take 2-3 days to get a single response!

- Bart

That's awesome! We are such a small forum but yet sort of busy for as small as we are.