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Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:16 PM
I'm going to post up a thread I worked on back in June for another forum...

About EVO vs Twin Cam oil filters.

I always knew there was a difference as decribed but it bugged me when HD came out with their new oil filter that works on both motors. So I started into my homework.

Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:16 PM
A topic that came up on another forum... the appropriate oil filter for the correct application. For BDB, some big dog owners have twin cam harleys, and we have had the K&N 170 vs 171 debate. I also include the notorious K&P in my research that I will start to post now...
It's going to get long... hopefully worth your time...

Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:17 PM
I'm always up for a debate, to be educated, and/or learn something new.
The cold facts to the best of my knowledge... please correct or narrow down better if you know better. I'm new to TC motors



TC motors use a 5 micron filter due to their oil misters. A particle bigger could possibly clog the mister.
TC motors are a high pressure low volume oil system
TC paper oil filters that are more restrictive causing less oil gallons per min usually contain a bypass and a anti-drain back valve.
Evo motors only need 30 micron filtering
Evo motors are a low pressure high volume oil system
Evo paper oil filters don't have the anti-drain back valve and it can cause some damage if present (un sure what damage or how). They also don't have oil bypassing.

Ok I believe that covers the differences between the 2 motors, their oiling systems and which filter specs are on the motor.
I believe the idea is that if you put a TC filter on a EVO. At idle the evo wouldn't be able to push oil thru the TC filter restriction so the oil would simply bypass the oil filter = bad.
If you put a EVO filter on a TC. It simply doesn't filter enough for the oil misters.
Last year I remember HD doing something new with their oil filters. For years HD had a EVO filter and a TC filter due to the differences as I stated above.
Here's the EVO only filter as listed on the HD site. I picked a random EVO bike (fat boy).
EVO Filter Part #63805-80A
(http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444184781 1&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374309319007&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374309319007&bmUID=1245441562520&bmLocale=en_US)
Stating:

Genuine H-DŽ Spin-On Oil Filters consist of cured resin impregnated paper which removes harmful foreign particles from the oil. Metal end caps and thermal setting adhesive provide positive seals, preventing bypassing of contaminant-laden oil. Made in the U.S.A
Then as I said there was a TC filter. However, I can no longer link that from HD cause they came out with their new filter (using my Ultra as an example)
SuperPremium (http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444184778 7&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374309318999&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374309318999&bmUID=1245441754067&bmLocale=en_US) Oil Filters Part #63731-99A
Stating:

Utilizing advances in synthetic media technology, the SuperPremium Oil Filters are TEST-CERTIFIED to provide filtration to retain dust, soot and other solid matter with low internal pressure relief and anti-drain back valves. Available in black or chrome.
This product is available in multiple variations. Be sure to look for the one that fits the specific model and year of your motorcycle.
Fits all '99-later Twin Cam and Evolution models and available as an upgrade for any motorcycle that requires Oil Filter P/N 63796-77A, 63805-80A, 63812-90 or 63813-90.

An upgrade for the EVO filter I listed above.
How can this be? What is being sacrificed?



Is it allowing oil to bypass the filter via the "low internal pressure relief" when applied to a EVO and its low pressure idle? Causing said oil to not be filtered?
Did they sacrifice the 5 micron filter rating to allow a EVO to push thru it with its low pressure oil system? I highly doubt this... cause that would death sentance the TC then.
Does the new superior filter have a 5 micron rating?
What about the anti-drain back valve in this new superior filter? Wouldn't that do damage (what ever damage that is) to the evo?

Then if that wasn't enough to twizzler your mind. I brought into play the K&P filters. A stainless steel cleanable & re-usable oil filter. K&P states (even updated to include 2009) that the TC & EVO run the same filter, part # S4.
K&P (http://www.kandpengineering.com/technicalhighlights.shtml) Techinical Highlights
States many things including items below relevant to this discussion:




Superior ASTMF316 filtration performance
7 times the flow of comparable paper oil filters
Magnetic Prefiltering
Progressive rate bypass combined with high flow characteristics of the filter media avoids unfiltered oil bypassing the filter during cold startup and high rpm
A one inch square of this material flows an incredible 1.9 gallons of oil per minute at only 1 PSI pump pressure.


I wonder what the conversion of that ASTM316 filtration is into micron ratings.
If it is lacking in micron rating is it made up with high flow capacity there for less likely to bypass and the magnetic prefiltering?
Does it contain or need a device for the anti-drain back?

Then we can throw in the other popular name... K&N
K&N (http://www.knfilters.com/oilfilter.htm) Oil Filters Generic Specs
The K&N (http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=KN-170) 170 is for the EVO motors
Stating very little other than:




Anti Drain Back Valve: No
are ‘TUV’ product endorsed and ‘TUV’ factory production monitored. This means every K&N oil filter is equal to or will exceed all OEM specifications. Our filters contain a modern synthetic filter media, designed for ultimate flow with less pressure drop, yet engineered for outstanding filtration to meet or exceed all OEM specifications.
Cross Referenced to HD #6379677A & 6380580A (the same EVO # I listed above)

The K&N (http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=KN-171B) 171 is for the TC motors
Stating very little here as well:




Anti Drain Back Valve: Yes
are ‘TUV’ product endorsed and ‘TUV’ factory production monitored. This means every K&N oil filter is equal to or will exceed all OEM specifications. Our filters contain a modern synthetic filter media, designed for ultimate flow with less pressure drop, yet engineered for outstanding filtration to meet or exceed all OEM specifications.
Cross Referenced to HD 6373199, 6373199A (same HD super filter listed above), 6379677A, 6379899, 6379899A, 6380580A
(the same EVO # I listed above)
PSI Relief Valve: 14.65

So the 171 says you can then use it on both motors. The 171 is also the only one that states it has a PSI relief valve. What about micron ratings?

WOW... talk about brain twisting...
How is HD able to run one filter for both motors?
Same goes for K&P?
Why is it that K&N still lists 2 different oil filter part numbers but cross reference they connect like the HD super filter?
That means that all three companies list the same filter for both motors and list no micron ratings or micron rating different requirements for the motors.
Being I have K&P filters on both motors (same number as indicated above), I have emailed K&P to ask for some clarification on their S4 working on both motors. I will let you know what they reply with.
Thoughts?
Insights?
Knowledge?
Links?
Confusion?

Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:17 PM
Well here's the email I sent to K&P.

Hello,
I am a many time repeat customer. I have purchase 3 or 4 of your filters for my many bikes in the past years, all being for EVOs and Sporty EVOs. Recently I purchased another S4 for my 2009 Ultra Classic with the 96CI twin cam. Now I have a gentleman on a HD forum saying that your filter doesn't filter enough for the motors misters. That the TC needs a 5 micron filtering. Anything higher will clog the misters and lead to motor problems.
I know that the EVOs at idle don't have a enough oil psi to push thru 5 micron rating filter media. So on a paper filter does the filter go into bypass? On the K&P for an evo, if it has TC filtering, how does it work with the low psi evo? Or does the S4 not filter down to 5 micron and therefor not nessicarly qualify for the twin cam micron requirement?
Can you please provide me with more information on this technical question. Something I can use to support your great product and settle my worries about filtration on my new motor.
I noticed that HD put out a TC/EVO filter called their Super Prem Filter. I'm not sure how they were able to do so. What did they sacrifice to achieve a filter that works on both applications? Is that sacrifice similar or the same for the K&P?
Sorry for so many questions but I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I appreciate your time and consideration on this matter, as a loyal customer.
Good day,
-Chris
The response from K&P

Hi Chris,
Micron rating discussions are often bantered about like fish stories. There
can be a lot of different versions presented of what is really happening.
We prefer the ASTM tests when measuring the particle size a particular
filter media will pass. ASTM testing eliminates the majority of the user
defined parameters (variables) for what we consider to be more accurate
results. The Harley filter that is advertised as 10 microns using SAE tests
actually passed 48 micron particles when run through the ASTM test. The 5
micron filter passed up to 39 microns. At 35 microns we meet or exceed the
filtration performance of the factory filters. An interesting thing to note
is that out of all the paper filters we have tested, the factory Harley
filter has performed better than most paper filters for particulate size.
The flow rate is where our filter really excels. We flow approximately 5
times more than the EVO filter, resulting in faster oil pressure at startup,
less chance of bypass operation, less back pressure against the oil pump
(potential HP gains) and better oil cooling. The reason we can get more
flow with the same filtration is due to the filter media. Cellulose or
other particles glued or pressed together don't have nearly the flow of very
small stainless steel wires woven into a filter cloth. This woven cloth
also produces more consistent filtration across the entire media, as well as
from filter to filter.
It's good you are thinking about the bypass operation in the overall
equation. After all, it doesn't matter how good the filter media is if it
doesn't flow enough to prevent the bypass from opening. Bypass operation is
a direct result of differential pressure (the difference in pressure between
the outside and inside of the filter element). We installed a gage on each
side of the filter on a pro stock motorcycle. During a pass down the track
we measured 20 lbs of differential pressure with a stock paper filter. We
measured less than 1 lb with our filter. That means a filter with a bypass
spring pressure of 15 lbs will have the bypass open. Ours, with a starting
spring pressure of 3.5 lbs, still has a 300 percent margin before the bypass
opens.
One additional thought. I have heard that the Harley engineers have been
researching the mister problem and are eyeing the paper particles that are
released from the paper filter media as a potential problem area. Cut apart
a new paper filter and rub the media surface and you'll see why they might
suspect something.
The Super Premium filter that I am aware of is the 5 micron filter and
should not be run on the Evo. It doesn't flow enough and will cause
problems with the back pressure it develops in the oiling system.
We have thousands of filters out there on Twin Cams and haven't had a
problem.
Hope all of this helps. Thanks for being a customer and for taking an
interest in oil filtration. There is a lot more to it than most people
realize.
Dave Fisher
K&P Engineering
303-507-4540
dave@kandpengineering.com
High Performance Oil Filters (http://www.kandpengineering.com)
I replied back

Dave,
I truely appreciate your time in answering this one guy's questioning.
Being part of the petro industry I'm well aware of the ASTM ratings on many things in my field, just not your particular spec. I tried to look it up but was having some difficulty finding a simple break down and how it relates to an oil filter.
I'm well aware of the paper filters breaking down and releasing the very paper filter into the motor that is suppose to be protecting the motor. One of the riders that spoke praise of the K&P filter years ago, said that after 30k on his evo when he switched to the K&P and was finding paper media in his K&P for about 3 oil changes. I may have to do this on the next paper filter oil change I do on a buds bike just to show them and get some pictures for more proof.
So out of all the other paper media filters the HD filters work the best but still lack seriously in their filtering. So the newest HD super prem filter being their best 5 micron filter is the one you are saying only filters to 39 microns?
I'm with ya on not running a TC filter on a EVO and wonder why HD would recommend it. I see a great deal of filter bypassing happening with that type of application.
I appreciate the insight on the bypassing function. I knew it was something of that sort.
At the end of the day the K&P filters 35 microns and that is a constant filtration that isn't restricted by the downfalls of the paper media. The reason why the K&P can work on both a TC and EVO is because of its superior flow rates, correct?
Can you answer my final few questions above. Does it sound like I have my head on straight with this? If you want, register and post on the link I put above. I will copy/paste your response but it may be better to come straight from the source.
Good Day & Thanks Again!
-Chris

Well there it is... As I said, I know many who have seen the paper media pieces in their K&P mesh at the time of oil changes. It does make me feel a bit better after some doubt was casted around these parts.
What do you guys think?

Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:17 PM
And yet another response.

Test number is ASTMF316
If you do take pictures of the paper debris being filtered out please send
me a copy and I will add it to our web site as independent testing. We can
test all day long, but it is still testing we are sponsoring and as such
should be viewed with the same scrutiny as other manufacturers data.
I wouldn't say the HD filters are lacking on the filtration. Most paper oil
filters return results in the 50-90 micron range. This is inclusive of
automotive filters. Remember, 50 microns is pretty small stuff. A white
blood cell is around 25 microns, cigarette smoke is 10 microns.... If
these weren't sufficient filtration levels there would be a lot of internal
combustion engine failures.
The reason our filter can be used on both the EVO and Twin Cam applications
is they meet or exceed the filtration of the Twin Cam (which has very
restricted flow) and flow many times more than the EVO (which doesn't filter
as fine as the Twin Cam but flows more). We provide the best of both
worlds.
One final note: After a very long process of testing, quality assurance and
process validation our filters have been awarded FAA certification. You are
running the same filters that have passed this certification.

I have also emailed K&N about their 170 vs 171

Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:18 PM
My email to K&N

hello,
I have been doing some research on the proper oil filter for the proper motor. With a garage that has both EVO and Twin Cam motors in it. I see that both K&N and HD offer oil filters that are listed to serve both motors. This is troubling...
The EVO motor is a low pressure, high volume oiling system. The oil filter for this motor needs to be capable of high flow and be able to flow at low pressures. It should not have the anti-drain back.
The TC motor is a high pressure, low volume oiling system. This oil filter needs more filtering due to the 5 micron passages on the misters. This should have the anti-drain back.
That being said. I see and have always used the 170 oil filter on the evo motors. I have always believed that the 171 is the filter for the Twin Cam motors. I know this works. However both K&N (171) and HD (63731-99A
)have offer these filters that when cross referenced they can link back to the EVO oil filter part numbers.
The way I believe it would happen if you ran a TC oil filter on a EVO motor, that at idle the evo won't put out enough pressure to push thru the 5 micron rated paper media, therefor the pressure would increase enough to go thru the bypass valve. Not good.
So if you still approve the 171 for the EVO motor, does the 171 not carry a 5 micron rating? That would mean its not approved for TC motors. How can the 171 fit both motors?
Sorry for so many questions but I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I appreciate your time and consideration on this matter, as a loyal customer.
Good day,
-Chris

Response:

Dear K&N Valued Customer,
Thanks for your interest in our products, The EVO engines use a reverse flow oil system. which means that the oil flows through the oil filter backwards thus not allowing us to use and anti drain back valve. That is why the kn-170 filter is used. If you used a kn-171 filter in that situation the oil would not be able to flow past the drain back valve causing an oiling problem. The Twin cam uses a conventional oil flow system which allows us to utilize the anti drain back feature. Our oil filters are capable of handling the high pressure high volume oil flows that performance oil pumps can put out. Our Uniform pleated synthetic base media has a less of a pressure drop across the media without sacrificing filtration. This means your engine is going to get all the oil it was intended to get from the oil pump. When you are dealing with EVO engines it is best to go on our website and look up the specific bike when applicable to see what filter we recommend. My understanding is not all EVO engines are reverse oil flow. If I can be of further assistance feel free to call or email.
Ryan Pelkey
Technical & Customer Support Representative
K&N Engineering
Ryanp@knfilters.com
Phone: (800) 858-3333
*When replying please include this entire e-mail*

Sure sounds like this guy is copy/paste some sales pitch... so I rebute

Ryan,
Please give more info on the micron rating for the K&N filters for both motors.
Also, how is it that when the cross reference numbers are looked up for your 171 that it can be cross referenced to an HD filter for an EVO.
Can you provide some information on the K&N filter that makes it superior to other paper media filters such as a HD unit.
Further, I will share this info with my biker buds to help promote the use of the K&N filters.
Thanks again,
-Chris

Again a response out of a sales manual

Dear K&N Customer,
Thank you again for your interest in K&N products. I do realize that in some cases the 171 Filter is listed for an EVO engine. We recommend that you look up the oil filters for EVO engines by year make and model of the bike instead of cross referencing the filter number. We have listed the filters for each bike application by the OEM filter number to ensure the right filter is being used because using the wrong filter could result in engine damage. The K&N Performance Gold Oil Filter has been constructed from the ground up to satisfy the high performance needs of Powersports racers, as well as the average bike owner who wants the very best oil filter available. Our synthetic-cellulose blend filter media stops particles as small as 10-20 microns at 90 Percent efficiency while still allowing high flow rates (between 12-16 gallons per minute, depending on filter size). This does not mean the filter does not filter out smaller particles. I do not have any data on the filters efficiency below 10-20 micron. Keep in mind the 5 micron filter is a recommended premium filter Not a Required filter. In applications where a steel-canister type filter is used, we use a heavy-duty steel casing, double-rolled seams to prevent leaks, internally lubricated o-rings to maintain a good seal (even after repeated removal/installation), and attach a 17mm nut for quick and easy removal. An attractive black or chrome finish is available on most canister style filters. Vehicles which use a cartridge-type filter (no metal canister around the element) also benefit from K&N's oil filter technology. The same features of a canister-type filter element have been incorporated into a cartridge-style filter. All K&N Performance Gold Oil Filters are manufactured to meet and exceed the requirements of automotive manufacturers, contain anti-drain back and pressure relief valves when required in OE applications, and are covered by a K&N limited warranty to be free from defects in materials and workmanship when installed and replaced using the engine and equipment manufacturers recommended service intervals.


If you have any further questions please call our Customer Support team at 1(800)858-3333 and a representative will be happy to assist you. Thank you for writing and have a great day.
Ryan Pelkey
Technical & Customer Support Representative
K&N Engineering
Ryanp@knfilters.com
Phone: (800) 858-3333
*When replying please include this entire e-mail*

I'm not impressed with K&N and their response. This guy seems to not have any techincal background or insight.

Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:19 PM
A quick search gave me this about the rating of meeting only 50% of it rated value:



IF MICRON LEVELS ARE TO BE USED

Nevertheless, you may still want to compare filters using micron ratings. If this is the case, the following is a good rule of thumb. A filter is considered nominally efficient at a certain micron level if it can remove 50 percent of particles that size. In other words, a filter that will consistently remove 50% of particles 20 microns or larger is nominally efficient at 20 microns.

A filter is considered to achieve absolute filtration efficiency at a certain micron level if it can remove 98.7% of particles that size. So, if a filter can remove 98.7% of particles 20 microns or larger, it achieves absolute efficiency at that micron level.

Most off-the-shelf filters are based upon a cellulose fiber filtration media. Most of these filters are, at best, nominally efficient at 15 to 20 microns. They won't generally achieve absolute efficiency until particle sizes reach 30 microns or higher.

High efficiency oil filters have filtration media made of a combination of at least two of the following: glass, synthetic fibers and cellulose fibers. Those that use all three are generally the best in terms of filtration. Those that use only two will fall somewhere in between. The best of these high efficiency filters will achieve absolute efficiency down to about 10 microns and will be nominally efficient down to 5 microns or so.

Efficient Oil Filtration Recommend : Motor Oil (http://www.carjunky.com/news/motor_oil/mom7.shtml)

Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:20 PM
Well the K&N guy stated

Our synthetic-cellulose blend filter media stops particles as small as 10-20 microns at 90 Percent efficiency while still allowing high flow rates (between 12-16 gallons per minute, depending on filter size).
So wouldn't that mean that their best filter can pass things as large as 22 microns.
Further I don't believe thier GPM. That is going to be the best filter size which will be MANY MANY times bigger than our little filters and at what PSI input from the oil pump... 40psi?
I thought I read that the K&P filter has absolute (100%) efficiency at 35 microns. NOTHING gets past it bigger than 35 microns.

Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:21 PM
I just re-read all of the K&N stuff to the wife... I'm really disappointed with K&N. He didn't directly answer most of my questions. Further, as he was copy/pasting most of his replies he started to tell me about the filter canisters which I NEVER asked about. he also never offered me to email him back on his second reply. Either K&N doesn't want to put any numbers in writting or he simply lacks enough knowledge to have constructive input. This may be the nail in the coffin for K&N and me. There are plenty of other manufactures making even air filters that meet or exceed K&N.

Gas Man
01-09-2010, 10:21 PM
****************************

That is the end of the postings for this...

Please feel free to comment and sorry for it being so long. Good homework and research always is.

RedneckMedic
01-10-2010, 01:11 AM
good stuff gas i read most of the k&p and skimmed the through k&n. you really are on to something there and i just want to make sure i understand most of what was said.

so the k&p is the best filter due to both its consistent filtration rate and its high flow rate allowing it to have universal function in both tc and evo motors? And the harley paper filter breaks apart, and if so is this due to poor quality or something else?

im sure there's a lot i missed it did make my head spin (insert rolling head smilie) but just trying to grasp this comparison

Mad Dog
01-10-2010, 12:11 PM
Great post and as usual you gave both sides an equal opportunity to plug their aftermarket filter. As you know Chris I was asked to run a group buy on BD for this filter. I now stock the Twin Cam/Evo S-4C filter and can get all other applications. I think I recall the pic where the previous paper filter media was collecting on the K&P filter for about 2-3 changes after switching filters. I think it was Ray? Anyway I am a K&P Dealer and can offer discount pricing on any filter they offer. If anyone is interested you can pm me. The S-4C (Chrome Harley) is available here. (http://valuetec.startlogic.com//page12.html) Thanks.

Gas Man
01-10-2010, 06:56 PM
It was a pic from Ray...

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/Raywood59/05%20Big%20Dog%20Chopper/OilChange008.jpg

Gas Man
01-10-2010, 06:57 PM
good stuff gas i read most of the k&p and skimmed the through k&n. you really are on to something there and i just want to make sure i understand most of what was said.

so the k&p is the best filter due to both its consistent filtration rate and its high flow rate allowing it to have universal function in both tc and evo motors? And the harley paper filter breaks apart, and if so is this due to poor quality or something else?

im sure there's a lot i missed it did make my head spin (insert rolling head smilie) but just trying to grasp this comparison
That is a real stripped down understanding.... I know its a great deal of info.

Mad Dog
01-10-2010, 09:10 PM
It was a pic from Ray...

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/Raywood59/05%20Big%20Dog%20Chopper/OilChange008.jpg

Yes sir....That's the crap Ray was getting out of his motor. WOW

Gas Man
01-10-2010, 09:40 PM
Yep he said that lasted like 3 oil changes... then it quit.

I know I have never seen anything that bad in the ones I've done (mine and buds).

Mad Dog
01-10-2010, 09:52 PM
He does put a lot of miles on that scoot.